WEBVTT

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Something doesn't seem quite right.

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Welcome to Not quite Right.

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My name's Ed and I'm Amanda.

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We are at Words on the Waves with Fiona
Kelly McGregor.

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Fiona is a Sydney based novelist and
essayist,

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and she's formerly a performance artist
as well.

589892b2-6612-4d56-9351-60549bd3c0fc-0
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Yeah.

bdfd67a4-218c-49d6-9235-cf8fe85a03c0-0
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And we spoke to Fiona about power and
about how sometimes power can be abused

bdfd67a4-218c-49d6-9235-cf8fe85a03c0-1
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and some historical fiction set in Sydney
as well.

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So here is our discussion with Fiona
Kelly McGregor.

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We're here at Words on the Waves with
Fiona Kelly McGregor.

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Nice to meet you Fiona.

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Thanks for having me.

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So tell us about what you're here at
Words on the Waves for.

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So I'm here for my latest book,
which is a novel called The Trap.

cfdb8a8e-79e2-4d7f-b9ca-35419c7d324c-0
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It's my 9th book and it's a novel which
is the companion novel to my previous one,

cfdb8a8e-79e2-4d7f-b9ca-35419c7d324c-1
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Iris,
for which I was at this festival as well.

d4f8bc9f-6798-4bd8-8c7e-4cd586846e86-0
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Actually,
this is my third time at the festival.

123ada2f-ca0c-4f1e-88c2-155ae637801a-0
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Can't get enough.

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It's a lovely festival and the trap is
set in Sydney in the years 1942 to 3:00.

ccb74c94-da72-4fb0-b7c3-33d3d1b0c505-0
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And it's based on an actual real life
scandal,

ccb74c94-da72-4fb0-b7c3-33d3d1b0c505-1
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which was an entrapment scam run by two
police officers and a lawyer.

16a24972-0b75-4d08-abbf-60ba29006dcd-0
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And this is an entrapment scam for queer
people, for game, for, well, for men,

16a24972-0b75-4d08-abbf-60ba29006dcd-1
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for men actually.

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And at the time, of course,
homosexuality was criminalised and police

f0eebab3-d515-43d9-b21e-fcaabac024cf-1
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had a lot of power to threaten,
intimidate,

f0eebab3-d515-43d9-b21e-fcaabac024cf-2
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blackmail and persecute gay men.

207c2f0d-7832-436b-8f0b-23309e87c059-0
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This story was so scandalous that it
knocked the news of the war off the front

207c2f0d-7832-436b-8f0b-23309e87c059-1
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pages of the paper for nearly six months.

ee58976e-c3ad-4031-84a3-0326fc3b1825-0
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It actually went on for a lot longer than
the period that my novel covers.

548ff522-255c-47d5-917d-31fb917af9c6-0
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My novel is just taking a segment of the
story and dramatising it.

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This is the time when the war was at its
peak,

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when concentration camps were going full
bore.

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Hundreds of thousands of people were
being slaughtered every day in the

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Pacific, in Africa as well.

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But this was such a big deal that it when
I to the front pages of the paper also

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because it really went all the way to the
top of society to the police commissioner.

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The media was involved.

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So in a way,
it's an age old story of the police,

32bb408a-1737-438a-bed0-6d0249be71d1-1
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the law and the media all manipulating
each other for power.

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Was the scandal the people that were
involved or the the actions of the police?

dd214a08-b6cc-4d31-a1d0-82fc9fa0cf3c-0
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Well, both.

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And actually this is a time before gay
men as a sort of solid identity where we

a49a72c5-9194-4efa-ba76-abbbed7a4cfe-1
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didn't really think in those terms.

ac0c0848-24a3-408c-a1d8-408845b92b8c-0
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So it's really about but the activity,
homosexual activity that's being targeted,

ac0c0848-24a3-408c-a1d8-408845b92b8c-1
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and we don't know what sexuality of those
men is,

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and we don't even know if they were
really engaging in that activity.

b96ab1a0-f110-4270-86ba-f99fb09597e7-0
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They were just being blackmailed for it.

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Without giving away too much of the story.

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But it's.

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Yeah, it's a very different time,
especially considering what a progressive

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Sydney city that Sydney has become in
terms of queer politics.

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And it's really a novel that looks at
power and,

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and how power can take advantage of
victimised people.

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Yeah.

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And that, that part at least,
remains unchanged.

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Really.

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Absolutely.

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And actually, see,
this book is an act of solidarity in a

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way for me to my gay brothers.

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But there is a whole area of the book
that looks into what happens to women as

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well.

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Iris Webber,
who is the star of the previous novel,

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is in this book as well.

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And in fact,
the main characters in this book have

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little tiny cameo roles in the previous
book,

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So there's a lot of echoing of characters
back and forth.

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And whereas the previous book was more
down in the world of the criminals,

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this book is more up in the corridors of
power.

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And so that's interesting just from a
writing perspective.

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When you were writing Iris,
what did you have these characters in

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mind?

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Were you already almost in your mind
writing the next instalment or is this

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something that's emerged later for you?

9b3fba72-955a-4d0e-a144-0f83018a0c61-0
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Yeah, it happened by chance.

6c4739a6-0be9-4742-be7a-2cac0240b53b-0
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I was supposed to write 3 Iris books and
then the second one was going to be set

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at this time.

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And then I went off on a tangent when we
discovered this little story.

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Yeah.

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And I followed a story,
The defence lawyer who's involved,

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he's in the Iris novel.

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And I didn't expect for him to become
such a big character,

b0de8a91-b2e6-4f32-9f5e-82da52f7d069-1
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but it fascinated me.

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And I thought, actually,
I really want to write about masculinity.

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And this story takes me.

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I'm really interested actually in how
those structures of power are working,

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not just in how they're being experienced,
but how are they working,

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getting into the minds of the men
directly involved and exploring that

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psychology.

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Yeah.

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And so I guess adopting the mindset of
these characters as you're writing from

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their perspective, how did you find that?

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Did you find that a challenge?

98fc2029-9500-4f8e-9e77-18650de4fb43-0
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Was it something that you felt expanded
your own perception of things,

98fc2029-9500-4f8e-9e77-18650de4fb43-1
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kind of all the things?

dea47126-e5f6-4afa-a75c-e4b6d1e54af2-0
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I mean,
sometimes it's really confronting and

dea47126-e5f6-4afa-a75c-e4b6d1e54af2-1
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awful,
and sometimes it's fun and sometimes

dea47126-e5f6-4afa-a75c-e4b6d1e54af2-2
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worth it at the same time.

fe082c55-fe48-4ee2-97b6-c7a7e90a2ab0-0
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Yeah,
and actually quite easy to do because.

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Yeah.

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Because it's like, well,
I know this because I've lived under this

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my whole life.

0b007a36-337c-4c8f-9bcc-a422726910ca-0
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Yeah.

c8c6561c-512e-480a-8cf7-35f263cfb0e2-0
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But I guess it's the challenge to have
empathy for the other side or.

55b8a3e6-fb74-47df-a4d8-f652f5f2e316-0
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Yeah, but that's, that's what writers do,
right?

9626f2b3-3966-47d1-ab4c-aadcf06cb6d6-0
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Yeah, exactly.

c2444a0b-4a6f-481f-a48a-c2172bd03ab2-0
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So there's,
it's a gallery of rogues and villains,

c2444a0b-4a6f-481f-a48a-c2172bd03ab2-1
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but everybody is multifaceted.

4d12d028-bcf5-4726-b41a-8ff587f8ca7a-0
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Is this a time period in Sydney's past
that you've gone to before,

4d12d028-bcf5-4726-b41a-8ff587f8ca7a-1
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or are you normally in the kind of more
contemporary world?

aa394e3e-7383-48b6-b7de-a87130d16705-0
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Yeah.

f3cb60a2-722f-4b3a-9147-977041ccd4b8-0
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Look, I work like, say, I don't know,
like Margaret Atwood or Hilary Mantel,

f3cb60a2-722f-4b3a-9147-977041ccd4b8-1
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where I happen to have written a couple
of historical novels.

725fbcee-68db-4381-b717-12a244137951-0
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But it's not something that I do in a
genre sense.

769a857a-ccbf-4343-b9e3-4254e2c06aa0-0
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And it's something that I have done by
chance because I came across stories.

16bc6267-a58c-417b-8079-c5176c775984-0
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It interested me, but the the setting,
the the city of Sydney is still there.

1f7780f5-5b91-4254-8618-6937a3112bf5-0
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Sydney's a constant in in my books.

7a188fec-7c50-42aa-b910-b7d9072a07cd-0
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It's not in every book, but yeah,
it's very common.

7948077a-0f76-4dc1-8dd4-4a05d342457b-0
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Yeah.

8e513425-8f78-48b3-b9df-75c5fd52aa87-0
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And it's a fascinating place because it
has changed so much over time.

c56b3809-f3f2-4e61-a412-82c7314a1765-0
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Like you said,
it's become a lot more progressive than

c56b3809-f3f2-4e61-a412-82c7314a1765-1
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it was there.

e9d054ce-f6c6-4225-a9aa-067ca159e742-0
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Like,
what do you think about Sydney in 2026 as

e9d054ce-f6c6-4225-a9aa-067ca159e742-1
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opposed to.

e4eda316-477b-4963-902e-1f1465e45d31-0
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Well, I think we're,
I think it's actually really conservative

e4eda316-477b-4963-902e-1f1465e45d31-1
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again.

bc38c5f6-dfae-491a-a4f1-85cf97c485dd-0
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But it's conservatism's predicated by
different forces, I think capitalism.

211c8a7b-04a5-4d0e-a867-1c2d756d2242-0
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But the constant actually,
which is relevant to now as well as the

211c8a7b-04a5-4d0e-a867-1c2d756d2242-1
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time this book is set,
is it's a very punitive culture.

ef6263ff-e70a-4272-9a43-f0dc46b9b653-0
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We've got a really quite a brutal police
force,

ef6263ff-e70a-4272-9a43-f0dc46b9b653-1
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as has been witnessed in demonstrations
this year.

a58817ec-cf6c-43d9-b809-e0f9c7bfaeee-0
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They brutalised members of the LGBTRQ
community in the Mardi Gras parade this

a58817ec-cf6c-43d9-b809-e0f9c7bfaeee-1
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year.

3cbb4626-7708-4c65-91d6-56306f03ae79-0
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And our community has received that from
them on and off constantly.

90f0e6a2-4631-4c84-88c3-b54a4a821471-0
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And I actually think we're still a penal
colony in a lot of ways.

dfe13b72-075a-43e8-b5bc-4f7f13453b50-0
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And I wouldn't be the only person to say
that.

79200d50-c7d8-403e-aebf-045bb6863625-0
00:06:49.640 --> 00:06:52.660
And another aspect of that is very strict
licencing laws,

79200d50-c7d8-403e-aebf-045bb6863625-1
00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:55.160
the strictest licencing laws in in the
country.

e2b9a2a7-8e5d-4aa4-8530-20c344b9a098-0
00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.565
And when you have really strict laws,
like strict laws around tobacco at the

e2b9a2a7-8e5d-4aa4-8530-20c344b9a098-1
00:06:59.565 --> 00:07:02.312
moment,
you open up an opportunity for a lot of

e2b9a2a7-8e5d-4aa4-8530-20c344b9a098-2
00:07:02.312 --> 00:07:05.516
illicit trade,
which in turn opens up another avenue of

e2b9a2a7-8e5d-4aa4-8530-20c344b9a098-3
00:07:05.516 --> 00:07:08.320
criminality,
which in turn invites punitiveness.

f59bb074-3b15-46f4-acf0-de416eea3fa2-0
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.200
So it's a vicious circle and it's
inefficient.

c1e80c3c-5584-4e38-b6b3-d6ab79898e4f-0
00:07:11.200 --> 00:07:16.640
But I think also the extreme wealth of
the city and it's it is extreme.

5a596940-75bc-446e-a6e9-91ca250275ab-0
00:07:16.640 --> 00:07:19.084
It's like one of the most expensive
cities in the world,

5a596940-75bc-446e-a6e9-91ca250275ab-1
00:07:19.084 --> 00:07:20.200
more expensive than Paris.

c013d282-532e-44ff-b1ff-237d225a975f-0
00:07:20.960 --> 00:07:24.200
So the pressures that that applies,
I don't know.

cb363057-094d-427e-8da4-bf0410802922-0
00:07:24.200 --> 00:07:26.240
There's a conservatism that that brings.

8b11e74b-d4e2-43fe-9e7a-1e23be86848b-0
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:27.360
It's a different kind.

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-0
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.138
I mean,
I've lived on the Central Coast now for

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-1
00:07:30.138 --> 00:07:33.843
about close to 15 years,
but I used to live in Sydney and every

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-2
00:07:33.843 --> 00:07:38.243
time I visit it's it's drastically
changed and it feels so much not to like

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-3
00:07:38.243 --> 00:07:42.179
overuse this term, but like very soulless,
like all of the culture,

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-4
00:07:42.179 --> 00:07:46.463
all of the kind of the, The Dirty,
grittier side of it seems to have been

30507029-2203-4014-b91f-02b660ca852f-5
00:07:46.463 --> 00:07:48.200
covered over and glossed over.

f095f1a9-1f7a-4e42-9218-02bf7b49fd10-0
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:49.640
I don't know if you feel the same way.

b5b7db9c-6829-4a0c-8e7f-59687a89db16-0
00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:52.205
I'm not sure which part of Sydney you're
in, but is,

b5b7db9c-6829-4a0c-8e7f-59687a89db16-1
00:07:52.205 --> 00:07:55.400
are there any spots that you think are
still got some pets alive?

1d1cdfcd-eec6-4b23-9183-c1402963023c-0
00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:58.040
OK, so I, I live in Redfern.

cedf094e-1b40-427c-a0b3-99a918ab9d32-0
00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:59.360
I've been there for a long time.

f3346cee-94fa-4bfe-bdce-afd6ddfcafa5-0
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:04.243
So I've seen that process in one of the
so called grittiest parts of the city,

f3346cee-94fa-4bfe-bdce-afd6ddfcafa5-1
00:08:04.243 --> 00:08:09.065
as well as one of the most important
communities, urban Aboriginal community,

f3346cee-94fa-4bfe-bdce-afd6ddfcafa5-2
00:08:09.065 --> 00:08:13.207
really strong community,
really culturally important birthplace of

f3346cee-94fa-4bfe-bdce-afd6ddfcafa5-3
00:08:13.207 --> 00:08:16.360
black theatre and a lot of the cultural
movements.

3a4a93a9-ac7c-41b0-946e-30d7003cd0a6-0
00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.868
And they're just about to start
developing the housing commissions down

3a4a93a9-ac7c-41b0-946e-30d7003cd0a6-1
00:08:19.868 --> 00:08:20.640
the road from me.

d2614d81-7286-4867-af97-e9a7639f2fd4-0
00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:22.360
And that's been on the cards for a long
time.

79ed09ea-0b3a-414d-8b02-99c824aa6e28-0
00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.160
And it's why they put that new train
station there.

ca64d9e3-0d1d-465d-b056-261523e7734a-0
00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.402
Train line is fantastic,
but that station should be over in

ca64d9e3-0d1d-465d-b056-261523e7734a-1
00:08:28.402 --> 00:08:28.880
Alexandria.

62d1ac63-c181-4292-ade4-467eea793641-0
00:08:28.880 --> 00:08:30.400
We don't need it for someone like me.

eed783e7-b2fe-4779-a5c8-80139e8f7884-0
00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:34.280
I'm spoiled, so I see that, but I do.

eb3b5b0e-12ac-4af5-881f-40a17cc84d95-0
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:38.160
But I also see there's still some good
spirit and soul left.

e18a083f-26ed-41f7-9c6f-c53788941b15-0
00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.678
But also the material city,
the constructed city has been pulled down

e18a083f-26ed-41f7-9c6f-c53788941b15-1
00:08:42.678 --> 00:08:46.000
really radically,
a lot more than a city like Melbourne.

187b804d-d028-48ae-8aae-97e418223722-0
00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:51.440
And so not having material evidence of
our past affects us in a way.

4d78c78d-634b-433e-a749-380ddf49e4a1-0
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:56.160
I think it makes us a little bit amnesiac
and a little bit careless.

ebd493f8-a684-4df5-b7a2-7eeea15e2e3b-0
00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:57.720
Yeah, in certain ways.

79825e35-3662-4c2c-a096-6193e2c49d01-0
00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.122
And also,
I think to be in a city of nearly 8

79825e35-3662-4c2c-a096-6193e2c49d01-1
00:09:00.122 --> 00:09:04.300
million people and to be in the centre of
that and find hardly anything open at

79825e35-3662-4c2c-a096-6193e2c49d01-2
00:09:04.300 --> 00:09:05.240
9:00 or 10:00 now.

ddb06fb3-da06-4561-93de-d684111dd7fe-0
00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:06.440
It is so innovating.

a08c3876-8393-48d0-b1b4-9f9b332d4aaa-0
00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.640
And it's because of the expense and of
the policing, and it's sad.

a5dddeba-bc82-45ae-8477-2d48b528c3a6-0
00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:12.080
I understand you're involved in
performance art as well.

c68c0df8-be42-41c3-ae63-cb45ecb9e3a3-0
00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:12.560
Is that right?

fe9cbe1a-8e1d-43c4-bd4a-ed7d2528d9b4-0
00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:15.240
Yeah, I used to be, but not now,
not anymore.

45528b0d-0d59-40eb-8652-cb2c3f18f454-0
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:15.640
Yeah.

21e9e301-de98-45e9-a6ec-e4c47ec4b1d3-0
00:09:15.640 --> 00:09:18.720
But is that something that has informed
your writing at all?

a1e3b30f-05a6-4364-9c31-36dd201aeed8-0
00:09:19.040 --> 00:09:22.625
Yeah,
I think probably it sensitised me to

a1e3b30f-05a6-4364-9c31-36dd201aeed8-1
00:09:22.625 --> 00:09:24.960
other forms of storytelling.

2b81e052-7fce-4da3-9f2d-e031ac4bbac9-0
00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.477
I've read a novel called Indelible Link,
and the body really is a central vehicle

2b81e052-7fce-4da3-9f2d-e031ac4bbac9-1
00:09:28.477 --> 00:09:29.920
for the storytelling in that book.

cd654eea-567e-4636-a313-02abbd0c58fd-0
00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:33.960
And that's probably culturally pretty
unusual for an Anglo writer.

d196f279-9825-40df-b941-91cba80b6dd3-0
00:09:34.160 --> 00:09:34.480
Yeah.

96b19b55-4e02-499a-852c-dc0a4ca33f8b-0
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.072
So it's that that everything that it
taught me has stayed with me even though

96b19b55-4e02-499a-852c-dc0a4ca33f8b-1
00:09:38.072 --> 00:09:39.040
I'm just writing now.

26cf06f0-b278-40d2-83c4-f89229e87a47-0
00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:42.440
And that was a book that, you know,
it receives some acclaim.

857c8223-7e6e-45d9-a71b-36fee2a6a4ef-0
00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:42.800
Yeah.

c45a6f12-fcad-49fd-b3e4-ed78ba999c8d-0
00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:43.080
So.

973f27cc-9330-4f6f-a525-9bbfabb8d31b-0
00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:45.800
And what's that experience like as well
to, I guess,

973f27cc-9330-4f6f-a525-9bbfabb8d31b-1
00:09:45.800 --> 00:09:48.880
be recognised for your writing to be
validated in that way?

ade7e903-c85a-4f93-b863-c524e87c4c76-0
00:09:48.920 --> 00:09:51.201
Well,
when you're in it for the long haul and

ade7e903-c85a-4f93-b863-c524e87c4c76-1
00:09:51.201 --> 00:09:53.632
you've written as many books as me,
you do know,

ade7e903-c85a-4f93-b863-c524e87c4c76-2
00:09:53.632 --> 00:09:57.600
you learn that it's a roller coaster and
you enjoy the wins when they come and.

52dfe9b5-932c-495c-93a8-79cedfe0a623-0
00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.720
And you just stick it out when they don't.

604824ef-4966-4637-af88-4f278bd9ca74-0
00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:02.560
And you've kind of driven by something
else.

998ceaac-5764-4a93-b1f1-71446c33c126-0
00:10:02.560 --> 00:10:03.080
Yes.

1979b85b-5148-4239-bd96-5cbe71c5e72c-0
00:10:03.280 --> 00:10:03.840
What is it?

c1489431-61b3-4e90-b082-ef3206abb13d-0
00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.960
I don't think any writer can really put
their finger on exactly what.

2622ab3e-b224-43a5-9367-6914d29a2ca8-0
00:10:07.040 --> 00:10:07.400
Yeah.

b1e201a7-8e75-4767-a3f3-82e4ebab257f-0
00:10:07.400 --> 00:10:08.200
I think that's it.

e9ecd057-7d56-49a1-aed0-615795d6bc1f-0
00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:08.400
Yeah.

52406f12-e44d-4e57-be4c-d6db75119119-0
00:10:08.400 --> 00:10:09.400
We can all agree on that one.

fcefb39d-b03b-4b61-a976-bb6df25bd674-0
00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:09.800
Yeah.

a3c427ac-ea28-44b1-81fb-facb75cb0f64-0
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:13.600
Well, best of luck on your upcoming panel,
and thank you for speaking with us.

682d23d7-1fc4-451f-b5d4-146ff07fab09-0
00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:14.480
Thank you so much.

cb9c6fe2-ed97-4ca4-ad75-bd8a6b6db9c7-0
00:10:16.920 --> 00:10:20.481
This has been a special presentation of
the Not Quite Right Podcast in

cb9c6fe2-ed97-4ca4-ad75-bd8a6b6db9c7-1
00:10:20.481 --> 00:10:23.240
collaboration with Words on the Ways
Writers Festival.

e55ab235-6e65-4e74-80aa-7b88097dd7c6-0
00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:27.272
Check the show notes For more information
about Words on the Waves and the books

e55ab235-6e65-4e74-80aa-7b88097dd7c6-1
00:10:27.272 --> 00:10:28.400
mentioned in this episode.

39811bcc-ab1b-4952-965b-8d70c732dad1-0
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.715
If you're new to the podcast,
please join us again for our regular

39811bcc-ab1b-4952-965b-8d70c732dad1-1
00:10:31.715 --> 00:10:34.800
episodes where we talk about media,
culture, and the art of writing.

6686a1f1-b504-487a-b55d-a056e5a8d7b9-0
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:38.680
Something doesn't seem quite right.