Something doesn't seem quite right.
Welcome to Not quite Right.
My name's Ed and I'm Amanda.
We are at Words on the Waves with Fiona Kelly McGregor.
Fiona is a Sydney based novelist and essayist,
and she's formerly a performance artist as well.
Yeah.
And we spoke to Fiona about power and about how sometimes power can be abused
and some historical fiction set in Sydney as well.
So here is our discussion with Fiona Kelly McGregor.
We're here at Words on the Waves with Fiona Kelly McGregor.
Nice to meet you Fiona.
Thanks for having me.
So tell us about what you're here at Words on the Waves for.
So I'm here for my latest book, which is a novel called The Trap.
It's my 9th book and it's a novel which is the companion novel to my previous one,
Iris, for which I was at this festival as well.
Actually, this is my third time at the festival.
Can't get enough.
It's a lovely festival and the trap is set in Sydney in the years 1942 to 3:00.
And it's based on an actual real life scandal,
which was an entrapment scam run by two police officers and a lawyer.
And this is an entrapment scam for queer people, for game, for, well, for men,
for men actually.
And at the time, of course, homosexuality was criminalised and police
had a lot of power to threaten, intimidate,
blackmail and persecute gay men.
This story was so scandalous that it knocked the news of the war off the front
pages of the paper for nearly six months.
It actually went on for a lot longer than the period that my novel covers.
My novel is just taking a segment of the story and dramatising it.
This is the time when the war was at its peak,
when concentration camps were going full bore.
Hundreds of thousands of people were being slaughtered every day in the
Pacific, in Africa as well.
But this was such a big deal that it when I to the front pages of the paper also
because it really went all the way to the top of society to the police commissioner.
The media was involved.
So in a way, it's an age old story of the police,
the law and the media all manipulating each other for power.
Was the scandal the people that were involved or the the actions of the police?
Well, both.
And actually this is a time before gay men as a sort of solid identity where we
didn't really think in those terms.
So it's really about but the activity, homosexual activity that's being targeted,
and we don't know what sexuality of those men is,
and we don't even know if they were really engaging in that activity.
They were just being blackmailed for it.
Without giving away too much of the story.
But it's.
Yeah, it's a very different time, especially considering what a progressive
Sydney city that Sydney has become in terms of queer politics.
And it's really a novel that looks at power and,
and how power can take advantage of victimised people.
Yeah.
And that, that part at least, remains unchanged.
Really.
Absolutely.
And actually, see, this book is an act of solidarity in a
way for me to my gay brothers.
But there is a whole area of the book that looks into what happens to women as
well.
Iris Webber, who is the star of the previous novel,
is in this book as well.
And in fact, the main characters in this book have
little tiny cameo roles in the previous book,
So there's a lot of echoing of characters back and forth.
And whereas the previous book was more down in the world of the criminals,
this book is more up in the corridors of power.
And so that's interesting just from a writing perspective.
When you were writing Iris, what did you have these characters in
mind?
Were you already almost in your mind writing the next instalment or is this
something that's emerged later for you?
Yeah, it happened by chance.
I was supposed to write 3 Iris books and then the second one was going to be set
at this time.
And then I went off on a tangent when we discovered this little story.
Yeah.
And I followed a story, The defence lawyer who's involved,
he's in the Iris novel.
And I didn't expect for him to become such a big character,
but it fascinated me.
And I thought, actually, I really want to write about masculinity.
And this story takes me.
I'm really interested actually in how those structures of power are working,
not just in how they're being experienced, but how are they working,
getting into the minds of the men directly involved and exploring that
psychology.
Yeah.
And so I guess adopting the mindset of these characters as you're writing from
their perspective, how did you find that?
Did you find that a challenge?
Was it something that you felt expanded your own perception of things,
kind of all the things?
I mean, sometimes it's really confronting and
awful, and sometimes it's fun and sometimes
worth it at the same time.
Yeah, and actually quite easy to do because.
Yeah.
Because it's like, well, I know this because I've lived under this
my whole life.
Yeah.
But I guess it's the challenge to have empathy for the other side or.
Yeah, but that's, that's what writers do, right?
Yeah, exactly.
So there's, it's a gallery of rogues and villains,
but everybody is multifaceted.
Is this a time period in Sydney's past that you've gone to before,
or are you normally in the kind of more contemporary world?
Yeah.
Look, I work like, say, I don't know, like Margaret Atwood or Hilary Mantel,
where I happen to have written a couple of historical novels.
But it's not something that I do in a genre sense.
And it's something that I have done by chance because I came across stories.
It interested me, but the the setting, the the city of Sydney is still there.
Sydney's a constant in in my books.
It's not in every book, but yeah, it's very common.
Yeah.
And it's a fascinating place because it has changed so much over time.
Like you said, it's become a lot more progressive than
it was there.
Like, what do you think about Sydney in 2026 as
opposed to.
Well, I think we're, I think it's actually really conservative
again.
But it's conservatism's predicated by different forces, I think capitalism.
But the constant actually, which is relevant to now as well as the
time this book is set, is it's a very punitive culture.
We've got a really quite a brutal police force,
as has been witnessed in demonstrations this year.
They brutalised members of the LGBTRQ community in the Mardi Gras parade this
year.
And our community has received that from them on and off constantly.
And I actually think we're still a penal colony in a lot of ways.
And I wouldn't be the only person to say that.
And another aspect of that is very strict licencing laws,
the strictest licencing laws in in the country.
And when you have really strict laws, like strict laws around tobacco at the
moment, you open up an opportunity for a lot of
illicit trade, which in turn opens up another avenue of
criminality, which in turn invites punitiveness.
So it's a vicious circle and it's inefficient.
But I think also the extreme wealth of the city and it's it is extreme.
It's like one of the most expensive cities in the world,
more expensive than Paris.
So the pressures that that applies, I don't know.
There's a conservatism that that brings.
It's a different kind.
I mean, I've lived on the Central Coast now for
about close to 15 years, but I used to live in Sydney and every
time I visit it's it's drastically changed and it feels so much not to like
overuse this term, but like very soulless, like all of the culture,
all of the kind of the, The Dirty, grittier side of it seems to have been
covered over and glossed over.
I don't know if you feel the same way.
I'm not sure which part of Sydney you're in, but is,
are there any spots that you think are still got some pets alive?
OK, so I, I live in Redfern.
I've been there for a long time.
So I've seen that process in one of the so called grittiest parts of the city,
as well as one of the most important communities, urban Aboriginal community,
really strong community, really culturally important birthplace of
black theatre and a lot of the cultural movements.
And they're just about to start developing the housing commissions down
the road from me.
And that's been on the cards for a long time.
And it's why they put that new train station there.
Train line is fantastic, but that station should be over in
Alexandria.
We don't need it for someone like me.
I'm spoiled, so I see that, but I do.
But I also see there's still some good spirit and soul left.
But also the material city, the constructed city has been pulled down
really radically, a lot more than a city like Melbourne.
And so not having material evidence of our past affects us in a way.
I think it makes us a little bit amnesiac and a little bit careless.
Yeah, in certain ways.
And also, I think to be in a city of nearly 8
million people and to be in the centre of that and find hardly anything open at
9:00 or 10:00 now.
It is so innovating.
And it's because of the expense and of the policing, and it's sad.
I understand you're involved in performance art as well.
Is that right?
Yeah, I used to be, but not now, not anymore.
Yeah.
But is that something that has informed your writing at all?
Yeah, I think probably it sensitised me to
other forms of storytelling.
I've read a novel called Indelible Link, and the body really is a central vehicle
for the storytelling in that book.
And that's probably culturally pretty unusual for an Anglo writer.
Yeah.
So it's that that everything that it taught me has stayed with me even though
I'm just writing now.
And that was a book that, you know, it receives some acclaim.
Yeah.
So.
And what's that experience like as well to, I guess,
be recognised for your writing to be validated in that way?
Well, when you're in it for the long haul and
you've written as many books as me, you do know,
you learn that it's a roller coaster and you enjoy the wins when they come and.
And you just stick it out when they don't.
And you've kind of driven by something else.
Yes.
What is it?
I don't think any writer can really put their finger on exactly what.
Yeah.
I think that's it.
Yeah.
We can all agree on that one.
Yeah.
Well, best of luck on your upcoming panel, and thank you for speaking with us.
Thank you so much.
This has been a special presentation of the Not Quite Right Podcast in
collaboration with Words on the Ways Writers Festival.
Check the show notes For more information about Words on the Waves and the books
mentioned in this episode.
If you're new to the podcast, please join us again for our regular
episodes where we talk about media, culture, and the art of writing.
Something doesn't seem quite right.