WEBVTT

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Something doesn't seem quite right.

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Welcome to Not quite right.

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My name's Ed and I'm Amanda,
and we're here at Words on the Waves with

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another interview with Hannah Forsyth.

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And Hannah is the author of Virtue
Capitalists,

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the Rise and fall of the professional
Class in the Anglophone World.

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She's also the author of the very
provocatively titled ******* Capitalism

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Substack.

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And so we spoke to her about her thoughts
about capitalism.

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So here's our interview with Hannah
Forsyth.

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We're here at Words on the Waves with
Hannah Forsythe.

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Nice to meet you, Hannah.

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Great to be here.

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And so tell us all about why you're here
at Words on the Waves.

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Thank you.

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Yes,
I so I was just on a panel with Sean

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Skarma,
who wrote a book called A Fair Day's Work

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and talking about my book,
which is called Virtue Capitalist,

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the rise and fall of the professional
class in the Anglophone world.

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Oh, that's a little bit of a mouthful.

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So would you like to just give us a bit
of an overview on the themes of your book

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and and what you hope to achieve with it?

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Sure.

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So I was really interested in class and
so all of our ideas about class had been

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formed when most people had working class
jobs.

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And so we had this kind of labour versus
capital thing going.

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But I was my first book was the History
of Universities.

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And so I was interested in what was going
on with these people.

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And as the number of them grew,
so that now actually the majority of

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people have professional jobs,
what does that do to our class?

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And how does that,
how has that changed over the course of

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the really the 20th century?

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So I started in,
I ended up starting in about 1870,

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which was the beginning of a first kind
of surge in professional occupations and

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coming up to about 2008.

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And did you have a thesis?

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Were you sort of working towards some
sort of idea or?

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Well, I wasn't at the time,
but as it turns out,

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every single one of the professions that
I looked at had a moral component to

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their work.

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And I didn't recognise it for the first
couple of years of reading all of their,

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their journals and archives.

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But eventually I,
I came to see that all of,

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in order to do any of this work,
you needed a combination of moral purpose

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and kind of and excellent.

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So you want to do a really good job,
but you also want to do it for good

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reasons.

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So if you're an accountant,
you need the audit to be correct.

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If you're an engineer,
you need the maths to make sure that the

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buildings and the bridges don't fall down.

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If you're a teacher,
you need to care about the,

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the ways that your students are are
growing and developing.

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If you're a nurse,
obviously your care is part of,

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of the thing.

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So the moral dimension of each of these
professions became really important part

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of this.

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And what I saw was that people were
investing morality in a way that they

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hoped would result in kind of profit,
but a profit that was was moral as well

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as economic satisfaction.

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And this is maybe where we disconnect a
little bit once we get into the corporate

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world and we're all just sending emails
back and forth.

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And I know Ed and I share the opinion
that, yeah, the corporate world,

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it can be a little bit soul destroying at
times.

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Do you think that maybe there is
something to be said for, I suppose,

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having some sort of moral value in the
work that you do?

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Totally, totally.

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I mean, the system had significant flaws,
right?

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So the the types of moral values that
were being brought were often doing as

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much harm as they were could.

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So if we think about the reason why it's
the Anglophone world was because when I

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had a look at the patterns across
Australia, New Zealand, Canada,

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the United States,
all exactly the same growth patterns,

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totally different to the UK and we're.

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Oh,
so there's something going on about the

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settler colonies that kind of encouraged
the professions to grow in the 19th

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century now.

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So the kinds of moral values that they're
bringing in were also deeply racist,

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terribly sexist,
built hierarchies through society that

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were exploitative as often as they were
good.

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So if we think about who really was
responsible for the Stolen Generations in

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Australia, it's doctors, social workers,
nurses,

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those professions that come with lots of
clergy, you know, lots of moral force.

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But often those went wrong.

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So I think they were onto something,
but it brought with it kind of some

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serious problems That began to change in
the 60s and 70s where every one of those

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professions had a moral crisis where they
began to try to turn those hierarchies

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upside down.

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So the social workers had to absolutely
disobey their bosses and start being on

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Aboriginal people's side rather than
taking their children way.

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But that was a very difficult thing for
those to do.

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And legal aid began to come in so that
the lawyers were not only serving rich

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people and so on.

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Every one of them went through this.

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And we're kind of living now with the
legacies of both of those systems of kind

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of steep,
in some ways unfair hierarchies that

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connect moral values with your status in
society,

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but also kind of the people seeking to
turn much of that upside down.

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I'm just thinking about this idea of
moral values in the workplace.

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And I,
I do agree that we don't really have that

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individual moral values.

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There's no morality associated with
anyone's role.

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Like the desire to make positive change.

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I, I guess,
is just not there for most people in

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corporate life.

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But there is a set of moral values from a
organisational like corporate standpoint,

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like things around climate change,
sustainability, diversity,

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all of that does exist.

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There is that moral dimension,
even if it is culture.

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Yeah, even if it is often performative.

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So I don't know if that's kind of taken
the similar position.

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I think there was a move from in the late
20th century away from thinking about

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that virtue as being in hearing in
yourself would and which came with some

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problems to something where that you
would manage at a more corporate level.

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So because the virtue was part of the
work, you couldn't not do it.

f7065360-6c37-4e2b-a237-7a43fc6fe0a0-0
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We ended up with kind of systems for risk
and quality management and things like

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that,
that were there to ensure that

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organisations were achieving what they
morally said that they were going to do.

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But we've got a different imperative
coming through from management at that

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time.

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We're kind of finding efficiencies,
building productivity becomes their

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measure of success,
and that success becomes often enough the

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thing that matters most.

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And so we end up then with a conflict
between that and with the good that

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you're trying to do.

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And also lots and lots of forms like it
across all of the professions.

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Many,
many will say they spend more time

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filling out forms than doing their job.

ce33f449-bf22-4b7f-ad39-f2d3fedf2568-0
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Yeah, a lot of red tape.

77e7aa97-3470-4213-a200-0246fb3b6993-0
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And you have a sub stack called *******
capitalism.

91d14005-beae-415b-91a6-2ffcfb125007-0
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I do.

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And you know, I often that is that like a,
a cheering kind of ******* or is it?

6721c10d-7528-4781-8b3f-443954e99e31-0
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What's the tone there?

c62d451b-3467-4839-b372-67ded4b9f571-0
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So I, I write about work,
education and the history of capitalism.

ec8c86a6-ee60-4eae-a1c2-c978ad49a5b9-0
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But those are my three areas of interest.

5bbc9da1-a217-4fed-97d8-11bc60aaa6e8-0
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And so I began my sub stack kind of
thinking that we could describe the

5bbc9da1-a217-4fed-97d8-11bc60aaa6e8-1
00:07:20.751 --> 00:07:23.845
history of ******* capitalism,
but we could,

5bbc9da1-a217-4fed-97d8-11bc60aaa6e8-2
00:07:23.845 --> 00:07:28.039
we'd also kind of look at strategies for
******* capitalism.

0aa5448b-0daf-4f8b-896b-364495ceb30b-0
00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:32.320
And so I have a little joke on it that
I'm trying to **** capitalism.

af38607d-ef9c-4ba3-8f96-0fd08f2dcfb3-0
00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:34.200
1 homegrown vegetable at a time.

72ee64dc-0b97-4bdf-8247-fd039c7b807a-0
00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:39.201
We live in the Blue Mountains and I my
sub stack also includes of discussion

72ee64dc-0b97-4bdf-8247-fd039c7b807a-1
00:07:39.201 --> 00:07:40.240
about my chickens.

628da1c2-2b44-44ac-97e4-d9d3b72d33fa-0
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.920
Amazing.

ed490a4e-5594-4bfe-b8b0-68f698d7032b-0
00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:41.480
I love it.

46de1b1b-0b7d-4e3c-91aa-a3243c426fb4-0
00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:44.110
I mean,
I'm often lamenting the fact that

46de1b1b-0b7d-4e3c-91aa-a3243c426fb4-1
00:07:44.110 --> 00:07:46.240
capitalism and the arts don't mix.

8c94afa2-acc1-4747-a93f-a55237278400-0
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.080
And you're here at a writers festival.

ce7b989b-e440-41f8-8109-935a20fb9e47-0
00:07:48.400 --> 00:07:52.560
What's your feeling on the place of the
arts and how that works in society?

7435f78c-9b90-49ff-855c-9c446b01424b-0
00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:54.080
That's such a good question.

ce4af9ef-c9db-4038-a794-70fb2c7b28ae-0
00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:58.819
It's like the arts has been so important
to everything,

ce4af9ef-c9db-4038-a794-70fb2c7b28ae-1
00:07:58.819 --> 00:08:05.760
to the growth of our sense of self as a
culture, as nations, as humans and so on.

83b8ebb8-dec8-4bd7-a581-167d0c4fec7d-0
00:08:06.080 --> 00:08:10.795
And we've had little spurts, haven't we,
sometimes of really great support for the

83b8ebb8-dec8-4bd7-a581-167d0c4fec7d-1
00:08:10.795 --> 00:08:11.080
arts.

15a6b2fe-bca7-4588-afd8-2fc588d3e356-0
00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:13.880
And where we see that kind of wonderful
flourishing.

f7db021f-0224-45e3-b7c4-02b272ff7061-0
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.520
We're not living in that moment,
right at this moment.

6f23d1aa-09fd-4b0c-914d-a30552d1af42-0
00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:21.168
And in some way,
like that's terrible because we we lose

6f23d1aa-09fd-4b0c-914d-a30552d1af42-1
00:08:21.168 --> 00:08:21.680
so much.

ff4737b6-d4dc-4c8b-bd24-72247f3696dc-0
00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.966
But at the same time,
and I feel this as a as a former academic

ff4737b6-d4dc-4c8b-bd24-72247f3696dc-1
00:08:25.966 --> 00:08:29.760
who's left the university system where I
can now do things.

9e75308d-a578-4be2-8a48-3ec7f7f10d94-0
00:08:29.760 --> 00:08:32.569
I have the, you know,
I have a lot less money, yeah,

9e75308d-a578-4be2-8a48-3ec7f7f10d94-1
00:08:32.569 --> 00:08:34.160
but I have a lot more freedom.

f073681f-1e25-4ebc-9ac0-f8893157f032-0
00:08:34.160 --> 00:08:36.807
And there's,
there's kind of something quite wonderful

f073681f-1e25-4ebc-9ac0-f8893157f032-1
00:08:36.807 --> 00:08:39.599
that happens in the arts when you're
sitting on the edge,

f073681f-1e25-4ebc-9ac0-f8893157f032-2
00:08:39.599 --> 00:08:42.440
you've not got very much, but gosh,
you've got good ideas.

83a07853-2688-4d36-85b5-cbad3d83b89a-0
00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.208
And I,
I think that we're seeing a lot of that

83a07853-2688-4d36-85b5-cbad3d83b89a-1
00:08:44.208 --> 00:08:45.600
coming out in the arts at the moment.

d71c5326-e79a-4e0c-9d89-cb7709b37736-0
00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.240
So it's almost like the starving artists
or the good artists kind of things.

d2358f22-a85b-4df6-9b21-df63e0fecc63-0
00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.440
But you don't, you don't want to do it,
do you?

12fd4b64-85da-4327-9f42-19f516ebdd0a-0
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:56.225
Because like people should have good work
and be well paid and, you know,

12fd4b64-85da-4327-9f42-19f516ebdd0a-1
00:08:56.225 --> 00:08:58.360
have enough time to do their art.

2d6eb109-f517-4502-95bf-d3656a37ea57-0
00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:00.566
And, you know, so we,
we want to support them,

2d6eb109-f517-4502-95bf-d3656a37ea57-1
00:09:00.566 --> 00:09:03.525
but there's something special going on,
I think at the moment,

2d6eb109-f517-4502-95bf-d3656a37ea57-2
00:09:03.525 --> 00:09:04.840
despite the lack of support.

7a0949f6-2823-4e1e-887a-0da779e78fcd-0
00:09:05.040 --> 00:09:09.140
If only there was an option to be
profitable and make money and not destroy

7a0949f6-2823-4e1e-887a-0da779e78fcd-1
00:09:09.140 --> 00:09:09.680
your soul.

ac37c53e-fa0a-4dd4-8f04-96ea41d5bd37-0
00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.560
Unfortunately, we're yet to find that one.

e9169b8d-ff7b-4f39-b97a-1bc982d1862d-0
00:09:12.560 --> 00:09:13.800
Yeah, yeah, me too.

aead2b23-3fdb-443d-973c-4707cf53f96e-0
00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:15.440
But thank you so much, Hannah,
for speaking with us.

22c97133-0968-4b3a-bbca-237524b09adc-0
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:17.880
We know you're limited in time,
but it's been wonderful.

10a3aeb0-dd7e-4747-8f72-1f53fc8a5d90-0
00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:18.800
Great to meet you both.

e66c6753-1a4c-4773-9394-19c6a70e2942-0
00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.761
This has been a special presentation of
the Not Quite Right Podcast in

e66c6753-1a4c-4773-9394-19c6a70e2942-1
00:09:24.761 --> 00:09:27.520
collaboration with Words on the Ways
Writers Festival.

f5512430-4380-4df5-90af-af777facf436-0
00:09:28.040 --> 00:09:31.552
Check the show notes For more information
about Words on the Waves and the books

f5512430-4380-4df5-90af-af777facf436-1
00:09:31.552 --> 00:09:32.680
mentioned in this episode.

ad299d5d-8088-4125-9a69-5431b53a3e37-0
00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:35.975
If you're new to the podcast,
please join us again for our regular

ad299d5d-8088-4125-9a69-5431b53a3e37-1
00:09:35.975 --> 00:09:39.040
episodes where we talk about media,
culture, and the art of writing.

52083431-9e04-49a1-bb47-343af7145b14-0
00:09:41.400 --> 00:09:44.400
Something doesn't seem quite right.