WEBVTT

153467c5-0bbf-40e8-8c29-c78c67934964-0
00:00:13.360 --> 00:00:14.840
Something doesn't seem quite right.

078409a9-506c-498b-937d-89ca2b1690ce-0
00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:17.760
Welcome to Not Quite Right.

0a12c49d-6d69-4fd1-959d-49ffd9b75609-0
00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:22.552
My name's Ed and I'm Amanda,
and we are at Words on the Waves where we

0a12c49d-6d69-4fd1-959d-49ffd9b75609-1
00:00:22.552 --> 00:00:24.040
spoke with Marmee Blue.

692d2e09-4d83-4b0d-b4e7-07b2cab8b989-0
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:29.844
We spoke with Marme about her work as a
novelist as well as her workshops on

692d2e09-4d83-4b0d-b4e7-07b2cab8b989-1
00:00:29.844 --> 00:00:35.296
writing family drama and what compels
people to want to write about family,

692d2e09-4d83-4b0d-b4e7-07b2cab8b989-2
00:00:35.296 --> 00:00:39.960
as well as getting her tips about writing
unlikeable characters.

dc6c3f61-d468-45b4-b332-f78f356ce043-0
00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.000
So here is our discussion with Marme Blue.

c3818074-8f7c-420e-85e6-a50df52cf074-0
00:00:46.040 --> 00:00:50.620
We're here at Words on the Waves with
Marmay Blue and you're part of the

c3818074-8f7c-420e-85e6-a50df52cf074-1
00:00:50.620 --> 00:00:52.440
writing about family session.

f99b447e-aa34-45ea-a003-5afe05731d0a-0
00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:53.640
So tell us about that.

442b9a1d-82fb-4d9b-955b-7da4f52a940a-0
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.440
Yeah.

f8686981-36e6-4e0c-8524-48b15358c404-0
00:00:54.440 --> 00:00:58.680
So my latest novel, The Rest of You,
is a multi generational story.

8d78a3aa-3db4-44c3-891e-3bfe50c5cdac-0
00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:00.640
It's kind of set in present day London.

b0177f10-cdf4-4781-a156-ff5ad2419123-0
00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.360
And then it also goes to the mid 1990s in
Ghana.

f18f2d4d-c03e-4416-96d3-fbcef8ab8ffd-0
00:01:05.240 --> 00:01:05.360
OK.

93a421df-7026-40ea-b7bd-fc37a4ebe98d-0
00:01:05.360 --> 00:01:09.323
And it follows like one family and how
one thing that happened in the mid 90s

93a421df-7026-40ea-b7bd-fc37a4ebe98d-1
00:01:09.323 --> 00:01:11.560
has an impact on the present day
character.

763a55b6-b929-4969-9091-d5c4bd78d474-0
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.400
So is this fiction?

208e9d44-9bf6-4cb9-a6d0-9a7999f29f75-0
00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:14.240
Non fiction.

f9b5c478-2e4e-40e5-96b5-636bdcd8952f-0
00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:18.008
Very fiction,
very fiction inspired by many family

f9b5c478-2e4e-40e5-96b5-636bdcd8952f-1
00:01:18.008 --> 00:01:18.600
stories.

f064e2e1-f21c-45ae-8dec-2a86ddaf07ea-0
00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:19.280
OK, I would say.

a09502a4-eabf-49d1-8445-88ca9d285d1a-0
00:01:19.320 --> 00:01:20.320
But yeah, definitely fiction.

f9d8d0ff-e223-401e-bf69-13c827d8221a-0
00:01:20.520 --> 00:01:20.800
Yeah.

f9b9c39e-4751-4037-8ecf-0cbbf9d2a23d-0
00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:23.388
So I,
your workshop is all about writing about

f9b9c39e-4751-4037-8ecf-0cbbf9d2a23d-1
00:01:23.388 --> 00:01:24.160
family, right.

da3090b4-2d64-4067-8531-ad17f24d9bc1-0
00:01:24.160 --> 00:01:24.440
Yes.

d8a2b679-4d9d-433a-b37e-8016fd2e487c-0
00:01:24.440 --> 00:01:28.758
So what were some of the, I guess,
key takeaways that you wanted your

d8a2b679-4d9d-433a-b37e-8016fd2e487c-1
00:01:28.758 --> 00:01:29.560
attendees to?

beadac20-ce5a-4e95-91ee-228e3f79c901-0
00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.108
Yeah, I kind of,
I wanted them to think about rather than

beadac20-ce5a-4e95-91ee-228e3f79c901-1
00:01:33.108 --> 00:01:37.120
like the structure of a story,
whatever story is really think about what

beadac20-ce5a-4e95-91ee-228e3f79c901-2
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:38.880
happens when you're in a family.

13b2c07c-7089-404b-8cb0-28208c2712a3-0
00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:39.480
Mm Hmm.

9692e967-aea3-4d23-b82d-f1b321541dc6-0
00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.810
And especially if you're writing family
stories and it's very common,

9692e967-aea3-4d23-b82d-f1b321541dc6-1
00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:45.760
I think Australia has a big interest in
non fiction actually.

de0ad648-dab5-4571-9926-203f1cbdaa72-0
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:48.080
You guys are like really up there with
that.

41ad3226-8d85-43db-bd66-1bde1e15b266-0
00:01:48.080 --> 00:01:50.360
And I think people are really interested
in true stories.

74b0018b-bc36-479f-962a-1ee9806c16bb-0
00:01:50.360 --> 00:01:53.480
So a lot of people are writing about real
family stuff and their real families.

335c9579-ebdf-4839-9e88-a971d4d6a109-0
00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:57.251
And so I wanted them to think about kind
of drill down into what happens when

335c9579-ebdf-4839-9e88-a971d4d6a109-1
00:01:57.251 --> 00:01:58.160
you're in a family.

05e6ff64-cfe7-465d-b3d9-29bce68b0e9e-0
00:01:58.160 --> 00:01:59.400
What role do you play?

22b2825f-1fae-4e93-b348-dffecf227d4e-0
00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.515
How does that ripple reflect happen and
impact other things that happen in the

22b2825f-1fae-4e93-b348-dffecf227d4e-1
00:02:03.515 --> 00:02:03.880
family.

1f25e868-a32f-4806-bbe6-3b8f1fb3e153-0
00:02:04.320 --> 00:02:07.320
So starting with the family almost as the
character or the.

4b3d24c5-0ad7-4a63-9dcd-5467a9936378-0
00:02:07.440 --> 00:02:07.840
Yeah.

c86f7e8f-c4ed-4503-bacd-4a506d692b3d-0
00:02:07.880 --> 00:02:10.360
And working back out from there.

113ad7a7-5f4f-4b59-9bc8-aeb2bfc5175d-0
00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:11.520
Yeah, exactly.

2701c1a3-91ba-4d39-8f13-32ed0cdb7f71-0
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:13.960
And because people are writing real
stories, it can be like,

2701c1a3-91ba-4d39-8f13-32ed0cdb7f71-1
00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.800
I've got all this information,
but actually I don't know how to make a

2701c1a3-91ba-4d39-8f13-32ed0cdb7f71-2
00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:17.440
story out of it.

b43c4af6-c8f1-4676-a90c-15b213f73704-0
00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:21.272
And so I kind of the workshop is about
helping you focus on maybe it's 1

b43c4af6-c8f1-4676-a90c-15b213f73704-1
00:02:21.272 --> 00:02:23.822
character,
maybe it's contextualising the history of

b43c4af6-c8f1-4676-a90c-15b213f73704-2
00:02:23.822 --> 00:02:27.478
the family and or maybe it's just
focusing on the conflict and building out

b43c4af6-c8f1-4676-a90c-15b213f73704-3
00:02:27.478 --> 00:02:27.960
from that.

ef273040-aab7-4c37-be9a-0d34f86c56eb-0
00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:30.760
And do you have any references that you
like to show?

4dc8704c-6da1-4a0a-948b-f2c9910cb85c-0
00:02:30.760 --> 00:02:33.720
Like which books do you think that that's
been done well?

345b21d3-2402-4da3-a97c-78ca5150155d-0
00:02:33.720 --> 00:02:34.360
Oh yeah.

f93c058e-5a7d-4fe0-9a85-fc6c752fa3ca-0
00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:37.240
It's like, who's your favourite child?

50952d50-2845-49e0-a0c8-3e5ab51f40f0-0
00:02:39.760 --> 00:02:42.888
Well, OK,
so there's a book called Son of Sin by

50952d50-2845-49e0-a0c8-3e5ab51f40f0-1
00:02:42.888 --> 00:02:48.060
Omar Sakhar and I think he writes about
like this big family relationship that's

50952d50-2845-49e0-a0c8-3e5ab51f40f0-2
00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:52.593
kind of chaotic and traumatic,
but also very there's like a growth and

50952d50-2845-49e0-a0c8-3e5ab51f40f0-3
00:02:52.593 --> 00:02:53.040
change.

531b4824-8430-4e1a-9c3a-fc110e29d3e2-0
00:02:53.200 --> 00:02:56.160
I think that shows like multi layers of a
family.

f00849e5-3948-4e64-9168-710407badb33-0
00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:01.204
There's this other book called When We
Were Birds by Ayanna Lloyd Banwo and that

f00849e5-3948-4e64-9168-710407badb33-1
00:03:01.204 --> 00:03:05.694
is like it's told from two different
characters perspectives and they have two

f00849e5-3948-4e64-9168-710407badb33-2
00:03:05.694 --> 00:03:08.650
very different families,
but they have two very big

f00849e5-3948-4e64-9168-710407badb33-3
00:03:08.650 --> 00:03:10.640
responsibilities in their families.

ecfc3938-4a9e-4c07-99ae-1dd6db2c6115-0
00:03:11.160 --> 00:03:13.640
And I just think that's another really
good way of like like family.

7da09d44-828d-4d0f-9f09-b4d2feca62bd-0
00:03:14.720 --> 00:03:16.240
I like this idea of starting with it.

efdc2d0b-5b00-4c2f-8ac5-0eee70940e3c-0
00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:19.390
It's almost like the framework or the
skeleton of the stories,

efdc2d0b-5b00-4c2f-8ac5-0eee70940e3c-1
00:03:19.390 --> 00:03:21.040
these these family relationships.

e65f0a89-a498-4095-bb02-17ff74c92f41-0
00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:26.840
How do you find that that works then in
tying it up into a satisfying story?

8f77683b-a1ff-4ba1-ba9c-5a74fa0836af-0
00:03:27.320 --> 00:03:28.080
Well, that's a good question.

deb77113-afbb-452a-8919-793846b95578-0
00:03:30.160 --> 00:03:33.621
And I think you have to be clear on why
you're writing the story in the 1st place,

deb77113-afbb-452a-8919-793846b95578-1
00:03:33.621 --> 00:03:35.040
especially when it's about family.

524eb635-e4bb-47b5-97f3-fd0dab9ef9ff-0
00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:37.238
Like inevitably our own stuff is going to
go into,

524eb635-e4bb-47b5-97f3-fd0dab9ef9ff-1
00:03:37.238 --> 00:03:39.522
anything we're writing about is going to
go into it,

524eb635-e4bb-47b5-97f3-fd0dab9ef9ff-2
00:03:39.522 --> 00:03:41.160
but especially when it's about family.

30eb921a-21bc-4a26-a725-cd1a621d985d-0
00:03:41.160 --> 00:03:45.994
So I think helping to focus the narrative
is usually just about having an answer to

30eb921a-21bc-4a26-a725-cd1a621d985d-1
00:03:45.994 --> 00:03:46.800
that question.

2a87b376-5abf-41db-b036-662a097cf286-0
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:47.840
Why am I writing it?

0e476769-7b66-4256-b404-850afd5006f3-0
00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.600
Why does it have to be me that's writing
it?

90b0d699-ce00-4084-9b1f-1f25fd8e66ca-0
00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:52.160
What am I trying to reveal in writing
this story?

874317e0-b478-4a91-a10f-d8b1aa1a551d-0
00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:54.342
Because if you don't really have those
answers,

874317e0-b478-4a91-a10f-d8b1aa1a551d-1
00:03:54.342 --> 00:03:56.661
then you're just recounting facts rather
than, oh,

874317e0-b478-4a91-a10f-d8b1aa1a551d-2
00:03:56.661 --> 00:03:59.480
actually I want to reveal this thing and
I want to tell this.

41544eb7-b858-4011-9a14-45b0673b5339-0
00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:04.003
Really interesting story and that can be
the challenge probably in in all sorts of

41544eb7-b858-4011-9a14-45b0673b5339-1
00:04:04.003 --> 00:04:07.218
types of non fiction writing,
but in memoir in particular,

41544eb7-b858-4011-9a14-45b0673b5339-2
00:04:07.218 --> 00:04:11.469
like trying to discern the story rather
than just the interesting things that

41544eb7-b858-4011-9a14-45b0673b5339-3
00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:11.960
happened.

c702c377-07cf-4a6c-8cc0-234a77c91c42-0
00:04:12.200 --> 00:04:13.480
Yes, yeah, yeah.

ff40db4c-e136-4e22-9706-b9fa04fba523-0
00:04:13.480 --> 00:04:17.098
And I think one of the things that I find
easiest is to help with like a really

ff40db4c-e136-4e22-9706-b9fa04fba523-1
00:04:17.098 --> 00:04:20.400
structural framework of just what is your
timeline that you're covering?

cb8aa6e8-01f2-467f-9776-b0fef747b904-0
00:04:20.400 --> 00:04:21.120
Because you can't.

d0067b9c-0d78-4fec-8bf2-96086dfdadd2-0
00:04:21.280 --> 00:04:23.080
We'd lovely to go from zero to like.

26022b3b-c77f-4248-92d5-0e3c59276327-0
00:04:23.080 --> 00:04:24.320
And then I was 75.

c3696e8d-bff6-4c6a-9d40-666e272fff01-0
00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:29.320
But actually that's a lot of information
versus actually, is it about this.

70f33460-cde9-4b45-a5bf-9096e0010fac-0
00:04:29.320 --> 00:04:31.640
During your teenage years or this.

bfdc236e-62d5-4da9-acc3-525f529067e4-0
00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:34.840
In the history of your family that's
really that you really want to focus on?

26dd6f4b-fa4c-4adf-9cd5-44852f6d3356-0
00:04:34.840 --> 00:04:38.890
Because I feel like that's where the most
kind of meaty bits of the story come out

26dd6f4b-fa4c-4adf-9cd5-44852f6d3356-1
00:04:38.890 --> 00:04:43.037
and you're a bit more focused on the time,
but you're talking about yourself writing

26dd6f4b-fa4c-4adf-9cd5-44852f6d3356-2
00:04:43.037 --> 00:04:44.160
fiction about families.

f43b622a-3e8a-43a1-a7b3-ca1b6e814f31-0
00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:45.640
So how does that differ?

fe88151c-90f0-4e8e-8c0e-2c66af75a824-0
00:04:45.880 --> 00:04:47.120
I don't know that they're that different.

e0438922-f6b8-4e74-ab80-e125f1a1283b-0
00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:52.724
I think my story was impacted by
obviously a very like personal experience

e0438922-f6b8-4e74-ab80-e125f1a1283b-1
00:04:52.724 --> 00:04:56.760
with family,
but also friends experience as a family.

f95cbb3d-d935-4e9a-b1e6-8c164ef218ce-0
00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:01.080
And also the focus of my novel is very
much focused on children of immigrants.

0ad3cf85-7591-49bc-8fc1-7f60d637fd3d-0
00:05:01.200 --> 00:05:05.660
And so there's that whole,
the migration part of the story is a big

0ad3cf85-7591-49bc-8fc1-7f60d637fd3d-1
00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:06.120
factor.

502b9968-2c3c-4a0f-be0e-f8f3d7ecc176-0
00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:10.748
So I think when I'm fictionalising that
I'm more thinking I'm focusing on themes

502b9968-2c3c-4a0f-be0e-f8f3d7ecc176-1
00:05:10.748 --> 00:05:12.520
rather than this family member.

f8e43a95-a7c1-4103-9a31-bc11dfd681f7-0
00:05:12.520 --> 00:05:15.840
And I'm not trying to make a character
based on someone I know.

88237835-f9ac-4333-9797-c423ecfbcc3f-0
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.596
I'm actually just thinking about the
contextual things that happened and how

88237835-f9ac-4333-9797-c423ecfbcc3f-1
00:05:19.596 --> 00:05:21.840
that influences what a character could
become.

6abd7d63-36a6-4c32-99a1-2d3e05d81233-0
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.478
Hmm,
so looking at the themes that you have

6abd7d63-36a6-4c32-99a1-2d3e05d81233-1
00:05:24.478 --> 00:05:28.344
experienced or that your families
experience and creating new characters to

6abd7d63-36a6-4c32-99a1-2d3e05d81233-2
00:05:28.344 --> 00:05:31.600
express those themes without implicating
anyone in your family.

58157dbf-526b-473b-9e30-d1f3ece89ecc-0
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:32.120
Exactly.

e248603f-05ea-46b4-a5e4-1fd05b9f10e6-0
00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:35.908
Yeah,
maybe that's a challenge of of writing

e248603f-05ea-46b4-a5e4-1fd05b9f10e6-1
00:05:35.908 --> 00:05:39.760
family based fiction is your family will
get to read write as well.

643311ab-d2dc-43d0-876b-6de068ed348c-0
00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.077
Yes,
that is a question I get every single

643311ab-d2dc-43d0-876b-6de068ed348c-1
00:05:42.077 --> 00:05:45.680
time I run this workshop and it came up
again this morning as well.

d4e68d76-9fb8-4512-8b78-b6849f883f42-0
00:05:45.760 --> 00:05:49.797
You just have to really think about
what's the most important part of this

d4e68d76-9fb8-4512-8b78-b6849f883f42-1
00:05:49.797 --> 00:05:50.120
story.

5c48280a-4631-40ee-8983-b15d266a519f-0
00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:54.176
Is it that I write down every single
detail about this person and, you know,

5c48280a-4631-40ee-8983-b15d266a519f-1
00:05:54.176 --> 00:05:58.339
their height and their, their, you know,
or do I need to go into the detail of

5c48280a-4631-40ee-8983-b15d266a519f-2
00:05:58.339 --> 00:06:02.080
just the emotions and the impact of some
of the actions that they did?

05211f75-7b7b-4585-94db-2ad33d389d81-0
00:06:02.080 --> 00:06:06.163
And can I build a character around that
while still keeping the things that I

05211f75-7b7b-4585-94db-2ad33d389d81-1
00:06:06.163 --> 00:06:08.520
think were most important about that
person?

0d0e9fd5-cedf-46a6-ac31-2fd8a5322ddc-0
00:06:09.200 --> 00:06:13.181
When you're running your workshops,
what do you think motivates most people

0d0e9fd5-cedf-46a6-ac31-2fd8a5322ddc-1
00:06:13.181 --> 00:06:15.120
who like, seek to write about family?

9c91d078-89e0-40c7-8039-5f92a32ea5fd-0
00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:16.720
Is it characters?

948dbf13-3ac5-4bf4-a506-bd33fa7b3656-0
00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:19.960
I can guess trauma.

6b54f1d7-2e23-4dd1-9250-17a01fcf7b95-0
00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:21.840
I'm going to guess resentment.

b6502ef5-2f80-42da-bdf8-a74bc9f89743-0
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:22.120
Yeah.

7303e604-721f-486e-88e8-9f8b5af4885d-0
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:23.960
Working through issues.

5fbd68af-1ae4-42e6-ab58-152c8fa03bf8-0
00:06:23.960 --> 00:06:24.120
Yeah.

cfaeac75-5663-412a-9ea8-8fb6091711f0-0
00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:25.480
Working through the ****.

1357e391-3eb6-48c5-abaa-40779d547829-0
00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:26.160
That's it.

3ff31003-15f6-4f68-8da1-0f837cbea932-0
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.280
Unanswered questions.

b1ce132a-c680-4b40-81c1-589086c56b48-0
00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:28.080
That's a big one.

769b8d93-45f5-411c-937c-0d3031d02ba9-0
00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:31.622
That was that was definitely my most
motivation for writing about family was

769b8d93-45f5-411c-937c-0d3031d02ba9-1
00:06:31.622 --> 00:06:35.303
kind of like the gaps that come with the
migration stories and the things that,

769b8d93-45f5-411c-937c-0d3031d02ba9-2
00:06:35.303 --> 00:06:36.960
as I said, like child of immigrants.

d0a172ec-e18a-4ee5-af31-cd9e2bad4209-0
00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.730
There is an element of my elders story
that I am never going to know because I

d0a172ec-e18a-4ee5-af31-cd9e2bad4209-1
00:06:40.730 --> 00:06:43.880
live in AI grew up in a different place
with a different culture.

2f0a8742-b1ad-4ec3-bbde-a7d55e0ab731-0
00:06:43.880 --> 00:06:47.432
And there's always going to be like a gap,
but the gap is widened when it's not

2f0a8742-b1ad-4ec3-bbde-a7d55e0ab731-1
00:06:47.432 --> 00:06:49.520
communicated or, you know,
that kind of thing.

edcd8702-8f58-4045-a602-03fc3a209334-0
00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:52.658
So yeah,
it's usually unanswered questions and

edcd8702-8f58-4045-a602-03fc3a209334-1
00:06:52.658 --> 00:06:55.395
yeah,
and curiosity and wanting to often

edcd8702-8f58-4045-a602-03fc3a209334-2
00:06:55.395 --> 00:06:58.400
probably know yourself a bit better as
well.

67054694-9993-4cc7-bdee-09cb85d49351-0
00:06:58.440 --> 00:06:59.040
Yeah, true.

378f1ea6-862d-4497-9297-a76f5c261bf9-0
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.720
Is this a session that you've done
elsewhere?

01b5faab-e7fd-406a-882e-46920dd05d18-0
00:07:01.760 --> 00:07:04.257
Yeah,
I've done it a few times a bunch of

01b5faab-e7fd-406a-882e-46920dd05d18-1
00:07:04.257 --> 00:07:09.134
different places, UK, Australia, But I do,
I also run like workshops on one of my

01b5faab-e7fd-406a-882e-46920dd05d18-2
00:07:09.134 --> 00:07:13.000
favourite workshops that I run is like
complex Characters, Yeah.

b1d56ab7-9ae9-44f3-92eb-a9b675623fcc-0
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.790
Which obviously is some crossover just
because I really like digging into how to

b1d56ab7-9ae9-44f3-92eb-a9b675623fcc-1
00:07:17.790 --> 00:07:20.470
write,
like an unlikable character and what that

b1d56ab7-9ae9-44f3-92eb-a9b675623fcc-2
00:07:20.470 --> 00:07:23.423
actually looks like when you write one
that's really,

b1d56ab7-9ae9-44f3-92eb-a9b675623fcc-3
00:07:23.423 --> 00:07:25.939
even if you're actively rooting against
them,

b1d56ab7-9ae9-44f3-92eb-a9b675623fcc-4
00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:29.440
that's a really good thing to kind of get
to the depth of that.

9412bfdf-aefd-475d-af4b-c9d97710a8fa-0
00:07:29.440 --> 00:07:30.960
So to care, to care.

2ff91f5d-bc84-43e8-b9e1-2b3a61f95b5c-0
00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:31.480
Yeah.

ab828663-f54c-4009-a1e8-4cba5c514ede-0
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:33.880
Even if you like rooting for them to fail,
that's great.

3e643cff-e7b5-450d-8089-070f6c6b8ecd-0
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:35.800
I like characters like that.

1ec86e1b-9ad9-439b-956b-792e6a4dd20f-0
00:07:36.200 --> 00:07:41.596
Do you like to write unlikable characters
as the main protagonist or as like side

1ec86e1b-9ad9-439b-956b-792e6a4dd20f-1
00:07:41.596 --> 00:07:42.320
characters?

86964c71-1eb0-49fe-a956-013e66ff940d-0
00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:42.960
A bit.

03acac7e-eeba-4d09-9f5b-7bdda98778fb-0
00:07:42.960 --> 00:07:44.200
A bit of both, I would say.

a90290be-02f4-4a30-a0f5-b32095e49ad5-0
00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:46.280
I like to think of a yellow face.

d4839638-daed-42e7-9152-e32e87e4350f-0
00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:49.760
Yeah, very wholly unlikable character.

1dabdfde-1e4e-4a35-bf57-fac0820b619f-0
00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.359
But you have a such a depth of
understanding of why she is the way she

1dabdfde-1e4e-4a35-bf57-fac0820b619f-1
00:07:53.359 --> 00:07:55.640
is that you still care about what happens
to her.

8e400df1-d600-4c08-85d5-960028972518-0
00:07:55.640 --> 00:07:58.640
Even if you don't want her to succeed,
you still care what's gonna happen.

b682be76-e371-4fde-8de1-6a20ff3ba283-0
00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:00.160
She feels like a real person.

c1c134c8-c4ab-44d0-ba34-7d36cce1b249-0
00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:00.520
Yes.

95be4cae-1742-44a9-b8d8-42a12f1d72f3-0
00:08:00.520 --> 00:08:01.400
Yeah, exactly.

9e470e52-7604-456c-8b32-fac8d7710583-0
00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:03.577
Yeah,
those are my favourite types of like,

9e470e52-7604-456c-8b32-fac8d7710583-1
00:08:03.577 --> 00:08:04.000
workshops.

a259ff25-a3ab-4141-80bd-715b2177497c-0
00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.892
I guess people can relate to unlikable
characters because a lot of people

a259ff25-a3ab-4141-80bd-715b2177497c-1
00:08:07.892 --> 00:08:09.880
recognise their own problematic traits.

c42e9c34-0c38-41ba-a42e-b35db9d4c200-0
00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:10.880
Exactly.

f1491d10-b4c2-4c4f-b157-2dd7281f6a75-0
00:08:10.880 --> 00:08:14.920
So to see that reflected in fiction can
be confronting, I guess.

8ec1f54b-a322-4a7a-bf21-d202ff81b04d-0
00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.880
I think a lot of a lot of people push
back often on when characters are

8ec1f54b-a322-4a7a-bf21-d202ff81b04d-1
00:08:18.880 --> 00:08:22.015
unlikable in in books and even like TV
shows and movies,

8ec1f54b-a322-4a7a-bf21-d202ff81b04d-2
00:08:22.015 --> 00:08:25.040
like they consider that a strike against
the the show.

67543320-11cf-400b-975e-6e21dfa75d09-0
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.240
But they're really important to have.

0d227651-29f5-44b4-ab99-268e3c41bd85-0
00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:31.036
And I think what makes an unlikable
character work, as you've said,

0d227651-29f5-44b4-ab99-268e3c41bd85-1
00:08:31.036 --> 00:08:35.167
is for them to be human and for the
reader to understand that they're not

0d227651-29f5-44b4-ab99-268e3c41bd85-2
00:08:35.167 --> 00:08:37.680
just like a cardboard cut out for no
reason.

d74145bb-b2d9-48cb-b442-895282715f66-0
00:08:37.680 --> 00:08:40.520
Like they have their own motives and
their own reason for being how they are.

387a5aa6-0969-46db-8d7b-708e834753c7-0
00:08:40.520 --> 00:08:43.059
And we can all relate to those kinds of
causes,

387a5aa6-0969-46db-8d7b-708e834753c7-1
00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:45.440
even if the effects are not the same for
us.

28dcefec-6ae5-47d2-a708-474bb174f1a6-0
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:46.800
Yes, 100%.

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-0
00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:49.714
And I think when I'm running those kinds
of workshops,

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-1
00:08:49.714 --> 00:08:53.267
I always like to use scenarios where
you've got 1 character playing off

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-2
00:08:53.267 --> 00:08:57.165
another character because that's often a
really simple way to show the reader,

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-3
00:08:57.165 --> 00:08:59.534
like,
reveal some more things about this really

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-4
00:08:59.534 --> 00:09:03.087
unlockable character is how they interact
with other people who are not

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-5
00:09:03.087 --> 00:09:06.196
unreasonable and how,
you know how those two things like knock

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-6
00:09:06.196 --> 00:09:10.094
heads or like, if I think about like, TV,
some of those like really successful

5febc277-8987-4ad5-8767-af20f4f0d9b1-7
00:09:10.094 --> 00:09:10.440
series.

0ea99681-a196-4130-9341-0674b79ff1fc-0
00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:12.040
This is a terrible example.

fb86dd57-cf7c-43ee-a99e-bf7041cc6d5a-0
00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:12.400
I'm gonna give.

3422985a-290f-4cd6-aa7e-3d2b81d4f851-0
00:09:13.400 --> 00:09:13.920
Go for it.

41e06a8a-6391-46ba-ae53-a3b3475911ef-0
00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.960
OK, Grey's Anatomy, bear with me.

bba53e9b-801b-44c0-be0f-e1660e5037cf-0
00:09:18.880 --> 00:09:22.604
A lot of people do not like the main
character, who is Meredith Grey,

bba53e9b-801b-44c0-be0f-e1660e5037cf-1
00:09:22.604 --> 00:09:24.520
but she doesn't need to be likeable.

ef74865f-5a7f-429b-a22f-18ea89b9da6b-0
00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.887
In fact,
her unlike ability is the point because

ef74865f-5a7f-429b-a22f-18ea89b9da6b-1
00:09:27.887 --> 00:09:32.800
everyone else around her gets to be then
multidimensional and feed off of her.

62a3e5d5-ea05-4e28-9848-c0e2d7f296ca-0
00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.640
You know,
whatever her unlikeable things that she

62a3e5d5-ea05-4e28-9848-c0e2d7f296ca-1
00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:37.080
does, it makes it interesting.

067e1c53-be80-44ca-8e1c-1899c9133ee8-0
00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.430
You still,
you need that character that's going to

067e1c53-be80-44ca-8e1c-1899c9133ee8-1
00:09:39.430 --> 00:09:40.040
bring conflict.

b4f1281a-afff-4861-91fd-12545f6f92eb-0
00:09:40.560 --> 00:09:41.040
That's true.

8bf362b5-5a27-4682-8746-c9d838e1a199-0
00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:43.720
I think that's quite a fun thing to do
when you figure out how to do it.

c41003d4-02ce-4d19-8565-5d8a82cb09f1-0
00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:44.800
Absolutely.

e9de8972-98ef-496b-96c3-66f71180ad67-0
00:09:44.800 --> 00:09:47.880
And so are you working on your own
writing now as well?

948c440b-3016-42c8-b02f-e6e5773d87f9-0
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:48.880
I am, yeah.

ff08e33a-d3e6-4f98-bdea-12fc8a39cb25-0
00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:52.760
I have another book hopefully coming out
next year.

f80ac35c-529c-4611-9984-e31488188578-0
00:09:52.760 --> 00:09:56.235
OK, yeah,
I'm looking more in the speculative

f80ac35c-529c-4611-9984-e31488188578-1
00:09:56.235 --> 00:09:56.840
fiction.

ed2f1ac7-e0c0-4dc1-ba49-49b642018977-0
00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:57.560
Oh, OK.

1940db40-19d0-461b-8896-a3904a91a7ad-0
00:09:57.560 --> 00:09:58.160
I'm changing.

ba78a039-72b6-4f51-9779-ac49dc47b85c-0
00:09:58.160 --> 00:10:00.400
So yeah, yeah, I like to read around.

40e6ff6f-065d-45ab-acc7-8f1bfd1188d3-0
00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:01.000
Yeah.

933e90e5-d8ae-4a40-818c-55c0def691b1-0
00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.080
So I'm,
I'm working on my my next few things.

f662bde4-c437-4849-bc51-ed2abc8acf56-0
00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:06.813
Alright,
so when we say speculative fiction,

f662bde4-c437-4849-bc51-ed2abc8acf56-1
00:10:06.813 --> 00:10:08.080
are we talking dystopia?

23232966-6cc9-4826-a464-3ad4c5005bc7-0
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.160
Are we talking?

3ec8eb75-c095-48ca-a3ef-468d3d54cec2-0
00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:09.640
I don't know.

ca74a37b-40c9-4a92-9172-2122efe8eb43-0
00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:11.800
We, we are, we are talking dystopia.

81a0012d-6432-40f8-bb1a-25da08944dea-0
00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.920
OK, you probably don't want to say that.

4723db4f-e876-437c-913a-06406c163d5f-0
00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:16.880
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm being,
I'm being coy.

0cf445c0-7afd-49f0-94c8-e2adb3f29c87-0
00:10:17.040 --> 00:10:18.040
Not not on purpose.

64b45e8c-b51a-42bb-b220-239071ee4223-0
00:10:18.040 --> 00:10:21.829
I'm just like, oh, but yeah,
it's dystopian and it's my first kind of

64b45e8c-b51a-42bb-b220-239071ee4223-1
00:10:21.829 --> 00:10:23.400
world building and much more.

a1b20b63-d676-410c-9143-ed4376126ccd-0
00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.800
My 2 novels are very like character
focused, character driven.

ced86945-0a41-4933-8cc1-d06774435a41-0
00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.360
And this is, but in a very different way,
said much more about the world as well.

c6fa54a6-6979-4430-af59-c7636d75cfa6-0
00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:31.400
Yeah, interesting.

594c29a8-cb7e-4a7c-ac24-3dab9ed472c8-0
00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:32.840
Like it's quite a leap to me.

c639d735-7241-43f9-ae5c-25e9a503e6a6-0
00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:34.000
It seems like a big leap.

d0f296b1-c0da-49ef-a26e-a77227ca3467-0
00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:35.120
Yeah, yeah.

daae63b9-f881-4f82-bf37-08fb126d53ad-0
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:38.600
Of focus and just approach to
storytelling.

f98afd03-1f46-4409-9ce4-346c5d20cee2-0
00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.096
Do you apply any of that same logic of
writing about family to the speculative

f98afd03-1f46-4409-9ce4-346c5d20cee2-1
00:10:44.096 --> 00:10:44.600
fiction?

bdb3834a-03bf-497e-a58d-d9f3ccf9f43d-0
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:46.440
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

3060664c-93cc-4b20-a193-255742f9be28-0
00:10:46.560 --> 00:10:50.905
It's a hard thing to do where I I usually
like those are like if I'm thinking of a

3060664c-93cc-4b20-a193-255742f9be28-1
00:10:50.905 --> 00:10:53.680
story are usually the characters usually
come first.

768c9162-6050-4223-96e7-12c18c6e0bb3-0
00:10:54.280 --> 00:10:57.160
And this was the first time where the
world came first before the characters.

8471a660-b636-4938-ab28-6ce0ccf3a3af-0
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.771
And so what's,
I guess interesting for me is thinking in

8471a660-b636-4938-ab28-6ce0ccf3a3af-1
00:11:00.771 --> 00:11:04.155
the same way that I think about the
layers of family,

8471a660-b636-4938-ab28-6ce0ccf3a3af-2
00:11:04.155 --> 00:11:07.163
which I think just sit in all kinds of
stories,

8471a660-b636-4938-ab28-6ce0ccf3a3af-3
00:11:07.163 --> 00:11:11.800
is also thinking about how then these
characters interact with the world.

db320f2b-2aef-4551-8bed-559c7278c729-0
00:11:12.520 --> 00:11:14.760
If I'm really trying to make really
fulsome characters,

db320f2b-2aef-4551-8bed-559c7278c729-1
00:11:14.760 --> 00:11:17.600
I think that's become a thing I'm
learning to do that I feel have been

db320f2b-2aef-4551-8bed-559c7278c729-2
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.720
quite interesting because it's bringing
out much more about characters than I

db320f2b-2aef-4551-8bed-559c7278c729-3
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:21.080
realised.

4bba06be-0d3a-438d-b15c-530e45b8cb31-0
00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:22.720
I'm wondering as well.

777ba1b1-9454-4ca1-817e-1a12a73efc25-0
00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:27.272
So in your workshops about family writing,
have you ever been challenged or

777ba1b1-9454-4ca1-817e-1a12a73efc25-1
00:11:27.272 --> 00:11:31.646
surprised by something that an attendee
has put to paper that has either

777ba1b1-9454-4ca1-817e-1a12a73efc25-2
00:11:31.646 --> 00:11:35.720
challenged you from like a writing
perspective or just from a girl?

e6c43b21-fd04-49af-8cac-55b43326cc4c-0
00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:40.882
I mean that across the board,
all kinds of workshops,

e6c43b21-fd04-49af-8cac-55b43326cc4c-1
00:11:40.882 --> 00:11:42.720
there's been a lot of like, what the hell?

2a484268-ca3f-430c-a90e-a967afee186f-0
00:11:43.880 --> 00:11:45.640
But you know, not the family one.

bab34b7f-025d-40bf-9032-d66b2683e017-0
00:11:45.640 --> 00:11:48.471
I would say the family one,
there's been some like amazing,

bab34b7f-025d-40bf-9032-d66b2683e017-1
00:11:48.471 --> 00:11:49.840
like writing that's come out.

3f404593-f838-48bd-af34-308674885da7-0
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.373
The family one,
I would say when they just start thinking

3f404593-f838-48bd-af34-308674885da7-1
00:11:52.373 --> 00:11:55.780
about differently or they're writing into
a different scenario and it kind of

3f404593-f838-48bd-af34-308674885da7-2
00:11:55.780 --> 00:11:56.960
unlocks something for them.

dfa3cd48-fd0c-44b5-9f85-10f33c50159c-0
00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:58.240
Those are like my favourites.

85dfba4f-293c-4c36-af17-c20bec312b69-0
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.400
I also teach like AI haven't taught it
for a while,

85dfba4f-293c-4c36-af17-c20bec312b69-1
00:12:00.400 --> 00:12:03.765
but a romance workshop because my first
book has a lot of romantic relationships

85dfba4f-293c-4c36-af17-c20bec312b69-2
00:12:03.765 --> 00:12:05.760
and I I did teach one,
which is often the case.

ebf26bc4-adc1-490a-8183-c9f3f221bcd5-0
00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:08.840
The majority of the attendees were women
and then there was like one man.

a7899cbe-d5a3-4476-859d-ce19f7735ecd-0
00:12:09.640 --> 00:12:13.080
That's usually the ratio for writing in
my experience.

4e947fb1-9b23-4848-87e6-4944890609c0-0
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.297
The task was about writing a sex scene,
which, you know,

4e947fb1-9b23-4848-87e6-4944890609c0-1
00:12:16.297 --> 00:12:20.308
is tricky if you've never done it like
takes practise and you figuring out what

4e947fb1-9b23-4848-87e6-4944890609c0-2
00:12:20.308 --> 00:12:20.960
you're doing.

374815dc-ea03-4300-8a4c-dc597929aa69-0
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.680
And it was just a very detailed counting.

83feb940-2ff0-4a32-9b78-ba4d4248c110-0
00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:28.520
Yes,
right from unfortunately the only male.

431d9c8f-2ff1-4c84-8f27-6811210a3666-0
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.480
Yeah, in the in the.

97a61bc5-d8d2-4db6-b101-d6a084ec5b82-0
00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:35.280
And I I give it to he was really trying.

6d13fd3a-3af7-46bb-bad9-cdcfc2e5ad6d-0
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.400
I don't think he he wasn't trying to be
salacious.

42ad09ce-a205-4b17-8a65-271d4a1bc7f8-0
00:12:38.400 --> 00:12:40.320
It was just he was embracing the
challenge.

edcfdbfc-8296-4a0f-bad1-82b06a0c637a-0
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:41.480
Yeah, yeah, he was embracing.

d9f9b767-8084-4aed-807d-98ee9ad066f7-0
00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.360
But this is this is what, you know,
that's where he was at with it.

91dd4454-2f8e-445b-85f2-c6f604965674-0
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.966
And it was just kind of a you know,
when you're the facilitator,

91dd4454-2f8e-445b-85f2-c6f604965674-1
00:12:48.966 --> 00:12:50.520
you kind of have to be like.

680e5464-7e63-4160-b2c4-3cbaeb703892-0
00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:51.640
And how do I now.

10f475cd-5d23-4622-a098-d8f6a0cdcf2d-0
00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:52.480
Yeah.

285cb3ca-cfe8-488c-b726-ab0d79be36cb-0
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.160
Manage how everyone else gets to react to
this Really detailed.

44794573-f568-4832-949a-dbeccbe615eb-0
00:12:56.280 --> 00:12:59.791
Why am I picturing that scene from my
girl where she goes to the writing

44794573-f568-4832-949a-dbeccbe615eb-1
00:12:59.791 --> 00:13:03.400
workshop and there's that couple that are
reading the really sexual story?

9e6b945c-08b2-4538-ae3b-701a9958e0c9-0
00:13:03.400 --> 00:13:05.240
Anyway, that's what I'm picturing.

3b946639-fa65-4247-b567-450f5afcd47c-0
00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:05.720
Yeah.

2ad52f51-fde6-418a-be70-7ce09ceff23c-0
00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.520
But that, you know, but nothing,
nothing's so, so crazy.

67fdc9b0-2677-4966-af01-1e887cb07278-0
00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:10.480
But yeah, that's,
that's kind of what comes to mind.

c012c068-1186-4944-a203-0d93b32a457b-0
00:13:10.680 --> 00:13:11.040
Good fun.

fe47c714-79d0-4815-a19f-b1d899124ba5-0
00:13:11.040 --> 00:13:11.160
Yeah.

aab75e95-39da-4a1c-9e88-0c3a65b96c2d-0
00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:13.640
All right.

5b906498-66eb-418c-9264-81fea4ba1243-0
00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:14.040
Well, yeah.

4e04732f-ccdd-454d-9bdf-6d780a99e173-0
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.520
Thanks for having your chat with this one.

69463337-a0d2-4829-b338-a63b2ec2bdbf-0
00:13:15.560 --> 00:13:15.840
Thank you.

da50793c-88dd-4746-85a0-7a03e8f9135d-0
00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:17.320
Thank you for chatting, B Thank you.

55cdb30f-8e60-4c46-b89b-0e329c531c42-0
00:13:19.760 --> 00:13:23.349
This has been a special presentation of
the Not Quite Right Podcast in

55cdb30f-8e60-4c46-b89b-0e329c531c42-1
00:13:23.349 --> 00:13:26.080
collaboration with Words on the Ways
Riders Festival.

dcf79570-77d4-4c12-b412-b0e260c218be-0
00:13:26.560 --> 00:13:30.072
Check the show notes For more information
about Words on the Waves and the books

dcf79570-77d4-4c12-b412-b0e260c218be-1
00:13:30.072 --> 00:13:31.200
mentioned in this episode.

833044f6-544c-4abe-8edf-63504a16eb88-0
00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:34.495
If you're new to the podcast,
please join us again for our regular

833044f6-544c-4abe-8edf-63504a16eb88-1
00:13:34.495 --> 00:13:37.560
episodes where we talk about media,
culture, and the art of writing.

44120cb2-c636-4391-a6a6-bc33a53fffb0-0
00:13:37.560 --> 00:13:41.400
Something doesn't seem quite right.